Is X-Rated Over-Rated?

Are you tired of sex?
Ummm, wait— that didn’t come out quite right! Allow me to start over . . .

Cara/Andrea here, and what I meant to ask is, are you growing a little tired of all the sex scenes in romance novels these days? I’ve recently been seeing a number of reader comments on various online forums saying that all the gymnastics are becoming  . . . boring. The complaint seems to stem from the perception that too many books appear to be simply stringing together a number of hot bed scenes with little attention paid to characterization or story plot.

The question is of particular interest to me lately because I have two books out this month—Passionately Yours, the third book in my Regency historical trilogy, has explicit sex scenes and Devil May Care, a new traditional Regency, does not. Now, I think most of us would agree that sex is a natural and beautiful and meaningful element of love and loving relationship. Yes, you can have love without sex and sex without love, but when they join forces, so to speak, it adds a special chemistry.

But here’s where we get to the heart of the matter—what creates that emotional sizzle between a hero and a heroine on the page?

For romance writers these days, the choice of how to do that is essentially a very simple one—graphic descriptions of physical intimacy, or creating a physical tension but them leaving the details to the imagination of the readers. Yes, yes, I am grossing simplifying here, as there are infinite shades of gray—and all other colors of the rainbow—within the two choices. But for the sake of discussion, let’s play with these two basic directions.

We’ve all read passages where the attraction between the hero and heroine has flames shooting up from the page. What I find intriguing as both a reader and writer is that it’s just as likely to happen from the description of a look exchanged between the couple as it is from knowing exactly what rumpley-pumpley is going on beneath the sheets.  In other words, sexual chemistry has no simple formula—add this amount of “X” to this amount of “Y” and boom, you have the perfect mix.

It’s an art, not a science . . .

We all have unique ideas about what’s sexy. For some of us it’s the shape of a smile or the spark of mischief lighting up the eyes. And for some of us it’s, um, other things. As readers, I think we all enjoy seeing how authors play with crafting the indefinable mix that ignites the perfect sparks for us.

But rather than prose on about what I think, I’d rather hear your thoughts on the what you find hot—and cold—in romance books today. Is there too much graphic sex? What works for you—and what doesn’t? I’ll be giving away a copy of one of my new releases (your choice—Devil May Care is e-only) to a lucky winner who leaves a comment here between now and Tuesday night.

Comments

[Janice]

I have no problem with graphic sex in a novel if it furthers the story. What I do object to is novels in which there is no story left to further, because all the space is given to one sex scene after another.

Since these are genre romances, not more realistic novels, I will add that there's a certain level of grossness past which I will not go -- for instance, the book in which the hero spots the girl of his dreams, the love of his life, across a ton ballroom, while he is in a curtained alcove getting a blow job from another woman. Very handy, those curtained alcoves. It was too crass, too blatant and too manipulative a beginning for me and it became an instant wallbanger.

So that's two issues I have: All sex, no story, and over the top crassness. Both are turnoffs for me.

[Quantum]

I like plenty of pepper to flavour my food and sex is a flavouring that I like in a tasty romance.

Doesn't have to be explicit, a glimpse of a shapely leg can do it, but the more explicit scenes can add excitement and really test an author's writing skills I think.

The descriptions must not be too clinical, and must link the emotions desires and ambitions in an expression of love rather than raw sex, otherwise the whole thing can collapse like a badly baked cake.

Shakespeare had some good ideas with his 'Taming of the Shrew'. In modern parlance, with a feisty heroine, an occasional spanking can add salt to the pepper and liven up the action considerably ... but like sex it must not be over-cooked!

I know that many readers don't like the explicit element so writing under a different pen name for different flavours can be a good idea.

Afraid I haven't tries your books yet Cara. Does 'Passionately Yours' work as a stand alone and do your other names 'Andrea Pickens/Penrose' indicate a specific flavour of romance (trad Regency)?

The covers look gorgeous ... though I do wish publishers wouldn't chop heads off!

I'm feeling very tempted by the titles and may take a closer look at the high street hellions!

[Andrea Penrose]

Both EXCELLENT points, Janice. The "no plot" complaint seems to be one I'm hearing a lot. As for the crass element, your example says it all. I think some authors have heard the mantra that an opening should be "grabbing" and so they want to do something dramatic . . . but there is a definite "ick" factor that must be guarded against.

[Andrea Penrose]

Quantum, that's a lovely explanation of the "right" seasoning in a book. Like cooking, writing is all about getting the right mix of ingredients, and one heavy-handed addition can ruin the flavor of the final creation. Romance novels are, at heart, about love, and the sex should be an integral part of the emotional connection developing between the hero and heroine.

Yes, Passionately Yours can be read as a stand-alone. My Andrea Pickens books are traditional Regencies (no explicit sex . . . and some of them are e-book editions of my backlist) The Andrea Penrose books are Regency-set historical mysteries. Again, no overt sex, but a more pyschological exploration of the characters (the hero and heroine appear in all the books as their relationship develops.)

[Gail]

To me, the story is of primary importance. If the sex scenes aren't connected by the plot, they mean nothing. I think there are many people who think enough sex means you don't have to have a story. I get very irritated when I've purchased a book and find out that there is no story. That author is off my list for good when that happens. I don't advocate a rating system, like movies, but it would be nice to know what you're getting ahead of time.

[Andrea Penrose]

I need a story, too, Gail. I'm totally open to the heat level, as long as an author can take me there with the narrative of the story and the personalities of the characters. It has to all fit together—no pun intended!—or it's not going to hold my attention as a reader.

[Susanna]

I have read across the romance genre in terms of sexual explicitness - from Georgette Heyer to Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty Trilogy (which I didn't finish). My tastes have settled into that place where the relationship is the key, and the level of explicitness must serve to move forward a strong story. And I want the relationship to be one that I can relate to. To me, a three-way relationship is not romantic, it's hedonism and failure to commit. BDSM is okay on the light end, but not where either partner is genuinely controlled, mistreated, or harmed. My tolerance for highly sexually active leads is limited; they have to have started on some level of reform before the central relationship begins, or I am not going to believe it. I still read quite explicit books - Lori Foster comes to mind - but I still listen to my Heyer audiobooks regularly. I've not read Fifty Shades of Gray and don't intend to; I feel as though I've been to that place, mentally, and didn't like it, thank you. I think anything a committed couple wants to do that fulfills them both and hurts neither is all good, but that doesn't mean I want to read about it.

I think Melting Ice, by Stephanie Laurens, and I Will, by Lisa Kleypas, both employ intensely sexual passages in short stories in ways that are integral to the storylines. I've read both many times, and will read them more. But one of the most intensely sexual scenes (in my opinion) in any romance I've read involves no sex at all - it's in "A Secret Love", by Stephanie Laurens, where Gabriel discovers the truth about his mysterious lover. I still get chills and heart palpitations, and I know I've read it a dozen times.

I guess this can all be summed up with: Write a great relationship encased in a strong story, and I'll read it regardless of the sensuality level. If your goal is to put in as much sex as possible and stretch the boundaries of your readers' tolerance, don't send me a review copy. ("You" being a generic "you", not a "I mean you, Andrea". ;) )

[Mary Jo Putney]

I'm all about the emotions--the degree of explicitness is secondary. Eva Ibbotson's sweet romances melt me every time because of the emotions and the way the characters are so perfect for each other, but sexuality in a historical romance can also be a significant way of developing the emotions and dealing with complicated issues. I want great characters, a great story, and good writing. How they get to the HEA is negotiable.

[Andrea Penrose]

Thank you Susanna! (On both levels!) This is a wonderfully articulate summary of what works for you—and I couldn't agree more about the basic concepts. Appreciate your sharing it!

[Carolyn]

I agree with others here - I don't mind some hot sex scenes, but they have to be connected to the story and help tell me something about the characters or further the plot development. I think the way that author's handle descriptions of intamcy can reveal a lot about the characters. I'm not really interested in sex scenes just for the sake of it!

[Donnell Bell]

Definitely depends on the story, and quite frankly how comfortable the author is in writing them, and if she enjoys writing them. Because if she's not it shows. Suddenly the author forgets about characterization she's just interested in getting the "plumbing" right, then getting back to the things she is good at. Writing is all about emotion, and when sex scenes evolve into insert this part here, that's when the author loses me. Just as we have our favorite thriller writers, we have our favorite authors who write fantastic sex scenes -- because she's fearless, includes the emotion and the characterization and it "belongs" in the story. Not just because an editor says we want two to three sex scenes.

I know one author who had wrote four standard sex scenes. She was quite prolific and on constant deadline. When it got to the sex scene she would evaluate which one of her scenes worked best. She did all right until her editor said to her, "I think I've read this before."

Such an interesting topic. Whatever you decide, it's all about the emotion not just the sex.

[Andrea Penrose]

Ditto!(You made it easy)

[Andrea Penrose]

Thanks Carolyn!

[Andrea Penrose]

Okay, everyone, here's an ancillary question: do you feel that a lot of recent books do work the sex scenes into the core of the story. Or are you finding a lot of stories that are merely bedroom romps, with little plot or characterization? (Please, no specific names—I never believe in bashing a fellow author—just a general impression!)

[Andrea Penrose]

Oh, LOL on the "insert scene "here"! You're so right about an author having a comfort level with explicit scenes. It's a delicate balance. Authors are encouraged by editors to keep pushing the envelope. So to find one's comfort level within the demand, is something all authors "wrestle" with.

[Patti Wissore]

I don't mind sex in a romance book, as long as it adds to the story and isn't the focus of the book. What I do dislike is when the opening paragraph of the book starts out with a descriptive sex scene. I have no emotional involvement with any character at that point so the scene to me is useless and overkill. I've read sweet romances where the author heats up the pages without describing any sex, they just fuel your imagination to where you have the scene in your own head. I've also read erotic romances where every act is described, but it's done with class and is part of the story. It just depends on how the author portrays the scene.

[Patti Wissore]

I see a lot of new Indi authors coming up with lots of sex scenes and not as much story recently. Then again, I've been hitting more new authors out there to try and open my reading list. Not as much just romping with my regular authors. It could also be more a writing maturity level?

[Beverly Abney]

I enjoy romance best when the H/H enjoy their lovemaking behind closed doors, so when there is a lot of graphic description I just skim over it. As long as there is a good story I can enjoy the book. My favorite authors can be counted on for a good story, so if I occasionally come across a new to me author who simply strings sex scenes along I quit reading the book. It is helpful that I can sample most new to me authors from the library.
Beverly

[Patricia Franzino]

I enjoy reading a sex scene that is a slow burn of desire and stops there. Later a further build-up brings on more sexual tension. I like the continued pull between the couple before the consummation, which I prefer later in the story without excessive, graphic description.

Continuous, obvious sex scenes only bore me. I prefer to feel the connection between the characters and know the foundation of a great love is being expressed.

[Linda]

I'm fine either way as long as it's well written but therein lies the problem I supposed, what is "well written"? I like reading emotions, the buildup, chemistry and tension. I adore tenderness. What I don't like is when a sex scene is thrown in "just because". I've read love stories that had me cry when there was nothing more than kisses. Sweet ones at that.

[Lillian Marek]

More often than not, I skim over sex scenes because I want to get back to the story and the sex scene isn't adding anything to it. Still, I don't want to say "Throw out the sex scenes!" because there are times when they are important. One example is the scene between Justine and Hawker on Joanna Bourne's The Black Hawk. I don't have the book at hand so I can't say anything specific about the physical details (though I'm pretty sure there were no dewy petals or throbbing members). What I remember is the powerful emotional wallop the scene provided. I think that whether we are readers or writers, that's what we are after.

[Susanna]

I confess that I have not tried a lot of new romance authors in a while, and one reason is the increase in emphasis on sex over relationship. Another reason is the difficulty in finding the short story/novella anthologies that used to be common. I have found several current favorite authors by reading their short stories in an anthology and then seeking out their full-length books. I have been disappointed so often that I am now reluctant to invest my time and money on an unknown quantity by buying a novel by someone I don't know. Even author blurbs and promotions of new authors aren't very useful to me; just because I like an author's writing doesn't mean I like her taste in books. And often they're quoted because they're buddies of the author or because their editor asked them to. Reading a lot of reviews on Amazon helps (the most helpful are often the 3-4 star ones), sometimes excerpts help, but I would like to see more anthologies so I can sample.

[Connie Fischer]

I find that too many authors are cramming in way too many explicit sex scenes into romance novels today. I am not a prude but I would love to see some of these reduced especially in Regency novels. Let's face it. We know that people weren't jumping one another's bones within a day or two after they met during that time period. Gratuitous sex scenes aren't really necessary to have a good story. However, if the majority rules that they like the excess sex scenes and the story is still good, I will continue to do as I do now: flip through the pages until we find where the story picks up again.

[Vicki W.]

So many really articulate comments on the issue - I especially agree with everything Susanna said. As well as Donnel and Patti W.

Explicit sex is fine in its place. But I don't want 10 pages.....one or two is fine and dandy. Maybe 3 pages if you bring in paranormal meeting of the minds too.

There is one author I still read that wrote a series of 4 books. I swear there was 15 or 20 pages of sex between every 40 pages of action. It got to be a bit much.. The story was good, just way too much sex. I had to start skimming over those pages because they were the exact same thing each time. Or just small riffs on the same scene. My sister that read those books after me ended up doing the same thing. Tooo much....

One of my sisters (I have 4) has gone back to reading only traditional regencies because of the sex issue. The other 3 read all romances. Well, actually they do each have their preferred type of romance but I haven't noticed that they avoid one author over another because of the amount of sex in the books.

Maybe I'll ask this question when we do sister's weekend next month.

[[email protected]]

I am totally bored with numerous pages of blow-by-blow intimacy in a novel. I mean really, I want a great story and plot and if you are any kind of accomplished author you should be able to deliver that without a minutely detailed instance of how far and often an organ from the male species gets to be inserted in however many orifices of the female. I mean really? Do I care? I want to know who the villain is - where is the mystery, the suspense, the purpose of telling a story. Motivation, feelings, growth of the protagonists - those are what I look for in a great romance. Overcoming adversity, proving innocence, and simply falling in love. I know how the act is done - a bit of sensualness is fine but not a chapter to detail the entire act!
Marilyn Rondeau

[Mary]

I've gotten to the point that more often than not I skim the sex scenes for the dialogue. I remember enjoying a new to me author and being disappointed that there was explicit sex. My first thought was that the book didn't "need" to include it because it was so well written. (It's 20 years later and I still read this authors books... Because they're so well written).

Story is important but so is character development. I need to care about the characters and root for them to make the changes they need for their happy ever after.

So I guess I lean towards the "less is more" side of the discussion. I've often thought it would be more difficult to write the tension with thoughts and feelings only without the sex scenes, though I'm sure they are a challenge to write

[Larisa]

Agree with so many of these comments. Along with those what drives me away is the hero constantly thinking about sex - the book becomes a tale of lust & objectification not romance, maybe even poorly done erotica. Creaming, pearling, and throbbing have become book ending words. On the other hand historical books where the heroine is a clueless virgin and needs to be walked thru the basic mechanics for every position are also frustrating. Accurate? Probably. Mostly comes across as annoying and makes her too slow on the uptake to respect.

[Edea Baldwin]

I have gotten to the point where I'll skim through a scene that is too "clinically" detAiled and goes on for pages. If it's exceptionally well written, that's different.
I increasingly like Georgette Heyer and Barbara Metzger because of the humor.

[Annette N]

I would like a romance novel to have actual romance. I do not think that sex equals romance in all cases.

You know, one of the most sensual things I ever saw - was in a film - an animated film actually....OK - stop laughing - in the Disney movie Tarzan - at one point he is removing a glove from Jane and he plucks each finger very softly and carefully and by the time he was done - well suffice it to say - that was very lovely.

I can face a sex scene if it truly is the result of a strong romantic attraction between heroine and hero. If they have had the attraction, the looks, the shared laughter, the touching of fingers and all that has built up then yes, it seems to be the beginning of a love match.

If he is putting notches in his bed post and she is dumber than a box of rocks and does not want to hurt his feelings by telling him to drop dead, nah not so much. I want a smart heroine who is drawn to a smart hero and things simply are too strong to ignore. And I want a plot, one that has action outside a bedroom, or a broom closet.

Absolutely sex is lovely - but in a romance novel, please have some romance.

[Patricia Rice]

I love, love, love our readers! This is a timely discussion. I'm struggling with two characters who simply have no interest in casual sex--I mean, conflict is there for a reason! And in historicals, particularly, there needs to be a good excuse for a single young virgin to give in without promise of marriage. I'm 3/4s through the book and finally have them in bed and they're still fighting me. Half the battle is finding motivation for that sex scene. I don't know how other authors do it!

[Anne Hoile]

One of the best authors to communicate sexual tension without excessive physical sex and yet hold the reader to the story is Carla Kelly. I speak specifically to the trilogy she wrote regarding the Napoleonic Wars, Marrying the Captain, The Surgeon's Lady, Marrying the Royal Marine. Not to say I don't like sex, but recently the books have gone a touch too far physically and not enough of connecting the hero and the heroine mentally.

[Judy Goodnight]

When I'm reading romances I want a long, slow build-up of the tension starting with the first looks, first conversations, the first touches. In the Mathew MacFayden-Keira Knightley, there are numerous scenes that illustrate this. For example, Mr. Darcy holds Elizabeth's hand (touches her for the first time) to help her into a coach. The camera cuts to a shot of him flexing his hand as he walks away. You know then what an emotional hit he took just from a touch of hands.

As the relationship between characters develops through heightened conflict & emotions, the sexual tension between them should be heightened as well. If the author decides to have the reader enter the bedroom, I want whatever happens to be absolutely the outgrowth of that tension and to fit with what is true for those characters, not simply be gratuitous sex.

[Judy Goodnight]

That should have said Pride and Prejudice movie after Mathew MacFayden-Keira Knightley.

[Andrea Penrose]

Patti, that's an interesting observation. There are many terrific Indie authors out there . . .but we also know there are a lot of not-so-terrific ones too. With no "curators" (ie trad publishing with trained editors, and a certain level of polish that readers can count on, it's harder to discover voices that resonate with one's own preferences . . other than word of mouth.

[Andrea Penrose]

Absolutely!

[Andrea Penrose]

Libraries are a good place for discovering new voices. Though if I love an author, I want to have the books at hand on my shelves! (I need a LOT of bookshelves!)

[Andrea Penrose]

Thanks, Patricia. It seems most of us are open to various levels of heat as long as the author makes it a compelling part of the character development.

[Andrea Penrose]

I agree, Linda. I often find that simmering chemisrty is incredibly erotic—more so than describing in graphic detail the physical coupling. And I've also read sex scenes that are wonderfully intense and work too. So it all depends on the writing. (As is the case in all aspects of a book!)

[Andrea Penrose]

Well said!

[Andrea Penrose]

The anthologies are a good point, Susanna. It's interesting, though. My publisher tried doing a free e-book of excerpts, and readers complained on Amazon that they felt "cheated." It was an attempt to let readers sample the books . . . strange why it didn't work, but maybe we just didn't hit the right group of readers.

[Andrea Penrose]

I confess to page flipping at times too. It's a complex problem—editors are pushing for more sex, and I'm getting the feeling that readers aren't necessarily wanting that. Hard to break the cycle.

[Andrea Penrose]

Vicki, I would LOVE for you to report back what you and your sisters think. I am so curious to hear more readers want, not just what editors want.

[Andrea Penrose]

Thanks, everyone for such thoughtful, articulate comments. Please keep them coming—this is a really fascinating discussion!

[Andrea Penrose]

Great example, Judy. I think that movie did capture some emotionally charged moments like that—and they were very powerful.

[Carrie T.]

I don't mind if the sex scenes are graphic, but I dislike it when there are more sex scenes than there is a story. There have been some books where I have been thinking, "Seriously? Another one?!" After so many it really starts to starts to detract from the story. I care about the characters, not about how frequently or creatively they have sex.

[Beverly Ross]

I don't mind it . its a normal human thing but I do like there to be a story there! If I want more sex I buy erotic books! You have a choice!!

[Laura]

I'm open to many different types of scenes- I don't even mind crass from time to time to shake things up a bit, if it is consistent with the characterization.

My most recent discovery is finding the hero/heroine catapulting into bed after the just-met phase. Then I look down and see on my kindle that I'm between 48-51% of the book read. It's almost like a template to accelerate the plot along when a writer gets too poky with their exposition. That really rips me out of the story. I'd rather have the relationship develop a little more naturally and have only one love scene than a random one.

[Sue W. McCormick]

I bought two e-books that were excerpts and felt vaguely "cheated" by the purchase; but the reason was because it wasn't made clear ahead of time that these were excerpts. As I already owned many of the books being excerpted, I didn't need to buy the collections (although I WILL explore the new authors there.) DON'T sell me an anthology of excerpts while making me think it an anthology of short works!

[Mary]

Plus, I would love to pass on some well written romance novels to my teen daughters, but so many of my favorite Authors' books have more explicit action than I want to provide them. I know, I know they're probably already reading it, but let me cherish my ignorance.

[Sue W. McCormick]

I don't quite know why I am adding to this discussions. I think I should just say "me too." In my reading sex scenes vary from "ok" to quite good, depending on the skill of the author; but ONLY if they are a natural part of the story (didn't I just read that on almost all of the posts above?).

I am a very rapid reader; if the sex scenes bore me but the story does not, I can get past the scene in about two scans a page. I pity readers who must wade through the intrusion.

For me, the story is first and foremost; the STORY, mind you — not the plot. The story is a mixture of showing me characters, motivations, and so on. The stamp a skillful author brings to a plot by utilizing these factors is what pulls me through the book the first time and brings me back to it again and again.

[T.Kay Michel]

Patti, I think you make a good point, maybe because it's what I thought myself. *Wink* The ease of self-publishing has flooded the market with books by those who may have talent but who lack experience. Too many people think it's easy to become a rich, famous writer. The truth is, only a few will reach that pinnacle, and the successful ones almost always spend years honing their craft. (Diana Gabaldon appears to be the exception to the rule.) Those with experience know sex has to move the story along or you're writing erotica instead of romance. Personally, I like my romance hot & spicy, but find sex-without-meaning boring. I believe it's a matter of conflict; plots with real conflict are riveting, a fact that two many inexperienced writers fail to understand.

[T.Kay Michel]

I believe we need a nationwide standard for rating the sexual content in romance. I like some sex, but I draw the line at certain acts which seem to be appearing in more romances lately. I probably would have skipped those if I'd know the book contained them. On Amazon, the responsible authors usually warn readers if the book has graphic sexual content, but even then, the warning is often vague. I've noticed lots of negative reviews are from those offended by sexual content. If there was a standard rating for such content, readers would not be taken by surprise,and those who prefer a certain level of explicitness could then find it more easily. Then readers would have only themselves to blame if they failed to look at the rating, thus sparing writers some negative reviews.

[Andrea Penrose]

Totally understandable!

[Sue P]

Whether to have the sex scenes more graphic or not depends on the individual story. Sometime explicit is right and sometimes not. I don't know if I've ever read one yet where it was too much or not enough because each story is different. A lot depends on the time period, the characters, the plot line. I'm okay either way.

[Andrea Penrose]

"Less is more" is a great mantra in writing as well as architecture. One can overembellish a work. Sometimes having a few well-placed elements—or words—is far more striking than crowding the space, or page.

[Andrea Penrose]

Yup. We have LOTs of choices for reading, and that's all for the good.

[Anne]

I'm reading many romances like I watch series on Netflix these days... all of an author's or of a particular series in one fell swoop. So, it's really noticeable when an author has certain quirks with her sex-scene writing, and all characters wind up being nearly identical over and over again in bed. It feels more like by-the-numbers writing rather than sex inspired by the characters or story alone. Generally like Carla Kelly and Eva Ibbotson, I could do without explicitness in my romance novels. (If I want well written sex, that's what erotica and some contemporaries such as Susan Fanetti are for anyway.)

Also, I find myself more and more annoyed by certain patterns in many more recent historicals. Often the couple have sex without birth control prior to an offer of marriage, which is insanely risky given women's situations then. And, if you're a virgin, the man will be particularly skilled due to past mistresses (yet have no related diseases to worry about) and will always go down on you prior to deflowering you. And, in a love match, the woman always comes from vaginal sex. Really? I know this is fiction, but why does it have to be quite so exaggeratedly fictionalized.

I also worry, does this give readers who are, erm, less experienced in the ways of the world, really badly false expectations?

[Andrea Penrose]

As I said, weaving the explicit scenes in calls for a delicate touch. It's a challenge to make them just right.

[Andrea Penrose]

THanks, Sue—that's a very important distinction to make—yes, it's the story that truly should captivate us.

[Linnea]

I skip the sex scenes when I get bored. I do not feel compelled to read an entire book if I don't like the way it is written or if the plot is tired or I don't like the ending. I have to say that I generally read the entire book when it is written by one of the word wenches....but there are more and more authors I don't even buy. I guess I am getting crankier as I age, but I am a retired physician and after a while, the scenes are too clinical and uninteresting.

[Sarah Webber]

I read the first 20 or so books by Stephanie Laurens and gave up on her because of the extensive, same as the last ten books sex scenes. My new favorite is Grace Burrowes and while her books have a pattern, I like the way the heroes treat the heroines.

[Joanne Bourne]

Oh, thank you.

Y'know ... my editor doesn't very often ask for a re-write. But she looked at my (perfectly adequate) original scene and sent it back saying, "Hawker needs better than this."

So that scene's a second go. *g*

[Janice]

I tend to avoid buying new Avon romances, except for three or four well known authors I have followed for years, because they're exactly what you describe. Lovely covers but I've been burned too often. Sex romps per se no longer amuse (if they ever did, past my teen curiosity years). Bor-ing!

[Janice]

I like anthologies too, because they contain complete stories. I wouldn't buy a book of excerpts; I'd feel cheated at having to buy another book to finish the story. So it doesn't surprise me that the "buy this book of excerpts" ploy didn't work.

I really miss the old Signet regency anthologies; novelette is just the right length when you have an hour or so and want to finish the story. (The times I had to put the novel down to get back to work on time still rankle!) I even miss those old Zebra things with the kittens on the front, that's how desperate I'm becoming :)

[Shelley]

I like both. But sex scenes can really spice up a story. I don't read the real erotic books.

[Mary Jo Putney]

An advantage of print books is that it's easier to flip through boring sex scenes than with an e-reader. *G*

[Andrea Penrose]

Totally agree with you, Sue. Nothing worse than spending money for a book that isn't what you thought it was. The promo material should be VERY clear.

[Andrea Penrose]

Janice, the excerpt book my pub did was free, and it was supposed to be just to help readers try before buying. But clearly that form is just frustrating for readers. Good to know!

[kelly]

One of the reasons that I enjoy historical romances is the sexual scenes are less central to the story than in modern romances due to the social norms of the time period. This forces the author to develop the relationship between the main characters in other ways. The budding romance and sexual tension makes any eventual sex scenes that much more enjoyable. I don't object to the sex scenes themselves, but sometimes less is more.

[Kelly]

I completely agree. I often will read an anthology because I like one of the authors, only to discover new authors as well, and seek out their full length books as a result. This is a great way to test out new authors. I usually will not purchase a book by an untested author. It is not worth the risk to me, as I have been disappointed too many times.

[Molly]

I read both styles, the traditional and the books with the graphic scenes which I've learned to skip over if I think they're a little too graphic or if I feel there are too many in a story, especially if they don't actually add anything to it. And I agree with Mary Jo Putney's statement.

[Mary M.]

Unh, unh, Mary Jo. I can flip the e-page and give the scene the finger with one leetle flip of my middle digit, LOL. If it's multi-page, I can flip it off multi times. Sometimes I really feel like doing that!

[Bec]

When it works it just works. You want to be wanted, need to be needed and love to be loved. Anything less is just some cheap tricks masquerading as a novel 😆

[Janice]

Then maybe what happened is an example of what my econ prof said: A free gift is by definition worthless ;)

[Nancy]

Explicit sex scenes are like being a voyeur in another person's bedroom. I didn't want anyone watching me on bed with my husband and would never stand and watch another couple copulating. Why would I want to read a blow by blow, inch by inch explicit description of some one having sex? A short description is OK and I will accept a longer description from an author I know has more to offer than a series of sex scenes. For the most part I believe in shutting the bedroom door and drawing the curtains.
I absolutely want to do violence to the female in a regency set story who has enjoyed several sessions between the sheets or on the floor and on the table with the hero and then tells him she won't marry him because he doesn't love her or some other stupid reason. It doesn't make me think much of her morals.
I do resent paying for a book and having to skip over a third of it so I generally try not to buy the ones with pages I have to skip. There are many good authors who manage good sexual tension and attraction without giving explicit descriptions of what a couple does in bed , in the stable , in the drawing room, in the alcove.

[Cathy]

Explicit scenes actually spoil a really good story for me because they make me feel like a voyeur. I love the Regency period with its the public restraint and manners. The flirtation and sexual tension are all that is necessary and only alluding to what happens "between the sheets" keeps my sensibilities in tact! I have quit reading several authors whose work I would otherwise enjoy because of the explicit scenes.

[Cathie]

Great post. I was thinking lots recently about some of the books saying 'clean' romance and all I could think of is the opposite being 'dirty' which I don't think love making is dirty. I love the traditional regencies which I call 'sweet' and then I love the long regencies which have a wonderful romance that brings their whole story to the book. I know my authors and what they bring to their story and love them. I love a romance that has it all as well as those sweet I just love reading. So looking forward to PASSIONATELY YOURS, Cara. Would love to read it in Kindle format congrats on the new release.
Cathie
Cathiecaffey@ gmail.com

[Kathy K]

May I say that although Diana Gabaldon was new at writing romance when Outlander was published, she has a PhD in Ecology and had done a lot of technical writing before she started writing fiction. So she did indeed spend a lot of time honing her writing skills before being published.
I agree that insert tab A into slot B gets boring in a hurry. The most important thing to me is the love between the characters. Otherwise you're just scratching an itch.
I also agree that the explicit descriptions can set up unrealistic expectations. Sexual pleasure varies in intensity depending on so many factors: fatigue, distraction, experience, to name a few. To testify that all "first times" will be ecstasy will cause disappointment. Also, I"m glad that there seems to be a lessening of the idea of a "barrier" deep inside that is not supported by a study of anatomy.
I really, really do not like the explicit bondage "stories" like 50 shades of gray (which I have not read) or anything that approves of pressure to do something that is not mutually desired.
What works for me is showing how sex is part of a relationship and helps them know each other in a biblical way, to be vulnerable to one another.

[Andrea Penrose]

Just want to thank everyone again for taking the time to write such wonderfully thoughtful responses. As a reader I love knowing what other readers are thinking about the current state of romance novels—and as an author I appreciate the feedback even more. So much is in flux in the world of publishing, so it's really great to hear from YOU all what you like and what you don't like!

The Wenches really appreciate your sharing your thoughts!

[Andrea Penrose]

Ha, ha, ha!

[Janga]

I have a list of auto-buy authors whose books range from kisses-only Inspirationals to highly sensual romances, but I know I can count on these writers to give me a story with engaging characters and a compelling plot. I am finding that I read fewer and fewer new authors because too often I regret the time and money I have invested in their books. I am weary of novels that replace character development with sex scenes that are boring, predictable, and generic. I'm convinced that some of these scenes could be placed in a different book and as long as the appropriate names were changed, no one would know the difference.

[Kantu]

All of you Wenches write exquisite sex scenes with a sensitive hand, and I love it. It always leads the story on further. There are many other great authors who do that as well. And many who leave us with such beautiful descriptions of expressions, feelings, turmoil, tensions, that you feel as if you were having those feelings too. There are some authors that I would buy (if I had all the money in the world) unquestionably. Because of the quality of the books they writ.

Then there is the non-stop sex with no story, no character, and you are left wandering, ok what happened here? Where is the story? I wonder how they get published and who the editors are. Surely all such books are not self published. There must be a lot money in that market. Maybe the powers-that-be of that market need to look into quality they accept.

[kay]

I like books where the sex scenes are not just fillers. If there are pages and pages of one sex scene I become bored. Recently, I noticed an increase in sex scenes involving tying someone up to prove trust. I feel that this increase is just a reflection of authors jumping on the "Shades Of" bandwagon and not really creating something of their own nor does it add to the story. There has to be another way to earn someones trust besides tying them to a bedpost.

I agree with most everyone here. I want my sex scenes to add to the story, the characters have to have chemistry and there must be a sensuality along with the sex act. There needs to be plenty of sexual tension. A good author can build sexual tension with just a glance.

[Glenda]

I'm not one who avoids books with graphic sex scenes but neither do I seek them out. I read things depending on my mood and sometimes I'll want to read the story but not the sex scenes so I just skip them. If a book has nothing but gratuitous sex scenes and no real storyline it goes in my dnf stack and I'll think twice before buying that author again. In other words sex is ok in a book but it needs to belong in the story. :-)

[Janice]

I'm with you, Cathy. I'm not embarrassed by the graphic sex itself (it's a bit late for that) -- but the intrusion, the lack of privacy for characters I have come to care about as if they were real -- that feels dirty. I don't like being made to feel dirty and told I ought to *like* it. I wouldn't put a camera in a friend's bedroom -- why would I want to spy on characters I like in a novel? In my view, it's objectification, and history is full of warnings of what comes from that :(

[ML]

I have no problem with sex in a romance novel if it advances the emotional journey of the characters. If that means a lot of sex, if it makes sense for the story (here think of great erotic romance like Jackie Ashenden's Having Her), that's fine with me. Or if it's only a few scenes, like some of Mary Balogh's old trad Regencies, that works as well. Or there can be nothing, like Beth Wiseman's inspies, and that can be fantastic. Because it's all about the story and the characters and their journey. The sex should reflect that, and reflect it well.

[Andrea Penrose]

Thank you so much for the kind words, Kantu—that means a lot to us!

[Andrea Penrose]

Again, all of you have made this such an interesting and thoughtful discussion! THank you SO much for sharing your thoughts!

[aef]

I'm not a big fan of explicit sex. I tend just to flip past the pages to get back to the story. I know the author probably spent hours honing the language but it's of little interest to me. However, I have a somewhat academic interest in following how explicit sex scenes have evolved in novels. There's plenty of material for a phd in sociology. When was the first french kiss, then mention of body parts, beyond tab A and slot B, then oral sex etc. I'd rather have well done humor than sex anytime.

[Janice]

Me too, aef. Humor makes me feel better. A hero and heroine who share a sense of humor shows that they're on the same wavelength mentally, emotionally and spiritually. I know they belong together.

Sex, however great, does not convince me that they're really a couple. Sex in books (of late anyway, and excepting one or two authors I could name) seems mechanical, contrived, and just about the body parts with perhaps something cobbled out of 50 Shades. Parts is parts. I'm interested in their minds, hearts and souls, and that's shown by how they talk with each other and treat each other out of bed or in it.

And why does tying someone up prove they can be trusted? Give me your checkbook, and we'll see who really trusts who :)

What a great topic this has been. It has brought out great comments from so many readers.

[Wynne]

I often skim or skip them, too. The sex scenes that go on for pages and pages don't work for me; I can't keep up (with the emotions, or the suspension of disbelief, or I'm not sure). One of my favorite things about romance novels is the conflict between characters, and sex scenes can work against that.

[Sonya Heaney]

Your second two paragraphs = everything I'm always thinking when I read!

Whether or not it suits current sensibilities, it is not at all realistic to have all these unmarried girls throwing away their virginity without a second thought. It annoys me when people say they don't like innocent historical heroines. Sorry, but that is fact, and WHY are we shaming women from the past for not being sexperts??!!

Speaking to ladies who are now in their eighties and nineties (don’t ask me how I get to have these conversations!), THEY say they had no idea of sex when they got married. And they’re 150 years younger than the heroines we’re talking about!

I also think the next heroine I read who has fantastic sex on the first try, with no help from the hero... Yeah, that book - even if it's on my Kindle! - is hitting the wall very fast!

[Sonya Heaney]

Even though most of my books are ebook ARCs, I still LOVE print books because skipping pages - or going back to reread favourite parts - is so much easier.

It drives me crazy to have to click through so many pages on my Kindle, or to have to figure out what number between 1 and 8000 to type in to find a page!

[Sonya Heaney]

But... I don't think that's the case anymore. In fact, I'm finding more sex in historicals than in contemporaries, which is just weird considering the lack of birth control, and the social stigma against birth control.

I read about ten historical romance review books a month, and as much as I appreciate the intimate scenes, I am a little tired of everyone jumping into bed in chapter two. Especially so for unmarried women who just want to "experience sex" without a care for their futures.

[Sonya Heaney]

"I was thinking lots recently about some of the books saying 'clean' romance and all I could think of is the opposite being 'dirty' which I don't think love making is dirty."

YES! I actually find that term REALLY offensive. Most of the people reading these so-called "clean" books are married women with children. So.... did the stork bring them those kids?

There definitely needs to be a less offensive term used for sex-free books.

[Karin]

I've enjoyed many books with some rather explicit sex, but I don't like a lot of long, drawn out bedroom scenes that go on for pages and pages, with blow-by-blow descriptions. I tend to skim over them.
Someone said earlier that they like a long buildup of sexual tension, with consummation taking place later in the book. But I remember in Mary Balogh's "A Notorious Rake", the hero and heroine go at it in the first chapter, and I believe it's one of her most popular Regencies. So anything works in the hands of a talented writer.

[LoriA]

I think that the change in style followed sales; editors must have noticed a strong preference for books with more sex. It started a while ago, so it's possible that reader preferences have changed. But it's hard to know if the people commenting on a particular message board are truly representative. ;-) OTOH, it could be that readers who'd be just as happy with less sex in books are also used to skimming, so, as long as the story works, the book satisfies a larger audience?

At first, I think readers who read the "trad Regencies" were not the same audience as for the sexier historical romances. But I think that was twenty years ago ... ;-) I'm not sure how much sales were falling off or how much publishing had changed so that previously acceptable numbers suddenly weren't good enough.

The one thing I disliked intensely in the move to sexier books was that we completely lost certain stories/plots. We no longer saw books that, for whatever reason, only worked if the characters didn't/couldn't have sex for some reason. Plus, of course, I just don't buy that all virginal heroines are willing to jump into bed (even with the hero/love of their life) so quickly. Sometimes that setup works, but it's not always the story I'm looking for. Or, at least, I'd like to see more variety in that respect.

However, I do know that some authors/readers who dislike innocent heroines often mean they prefer heroines with some experience. They might prefer reading about a widow (or perhaps a courtesan?). They're not talking about virgins who jump into bed quickly just because the guy is the hero and they catch on very fast.

And I haven't been reading nearly as much historical romance as I once did, so it's hard to comment on what is out there now. I rarely pick up self-published books without recommendations from other readers, and I still have some of the currently popular authors in my TBR pile, waiting till I'm in the mood to sample them.

[Andrea Penrose]

Very true, Karin. Hard to make generalizations in writing because so many things depend on the the individual writer. Some people could make the telephone book sound compelling

[Andrea Penrose]

It really has sparked a really interesting conversation! Thanks again to all who have taken the time and thought to respond to the question!

[Andrea Penrose]

Without humor, life seems a shade duller, doesn't it?