Where and what

Hi, Jo here, first sharing a photograph my husband took of dew on a crocosmia flower. Click on it to expand. It's really pretty.

We're finally having some consistently nice weather here in Devon, though it has the autumn chill in it, and some of the annuals which seemed to have decided their year was over have perked up again, which is lovely.

I'm not, however, blogging about flowers and gardens today, but on geography/nationhood and historical romance. I'm hoping to read your thought on why as readers we seem to have such a fixed idea about what stories suit what places, particularly in Britain.

In the past, Edinburgh and Dublin had societies to rival London, but have you read an historical romance set there? If you have, I'd truly like to know so I could extend my study of this phenomenen. It seems to me that we reserve the aristocratic delights for England, and mostly for London, and expect rougher adventures in Scotland.

Check out this great site about Georgian Edinburgh, with plenty of photographs.

I mentioned geography above, because some people might say the difference in stories is dictated by geography, but the land doesn't always follow national lines. Large parts of northern England are very similar to lowland Scotland, so could be suitable for wilder stories, but I haven't seen any set in Northumberland, Durham, or Cumbria/Cumberland. Know any?

(Yesterday I listened to an interesting radio programme about the Isle of Bute, off the west coast of Scotland, not far from Glasgow. I learned that it straddles the geographic/georlogical division of Scotland, so that even though it's only about 15 miles long the northern part is highland granite and the southern part lowland sandstone.)

Ireland is a special case because of it's troubled history. Perhaps assemblies and balls and characters concerned about fashion and frolics simply don't seem appropriate, but it was an elegant, fashionable place in the Georgian age. This photograph could as easily be of London at the time. What do you think? Is it Ireland's struggles that make fun romance sit poorly there?

(Photo credit. Henrietta Street, Dublin "The original Georgian Dublin street, it dates from the 1720's. It featured recently in David Dimbleby's "How We Built Britain" as an example of urban decay."   © Copyright JP and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.)

Then we have Wales. I confess to not knowing enough about Wales so I don't know if Cardiff or any other town there had a gracious Georgian age. I do know that there are very few Welsh historical romances. Mary Jo set Thunder and Roses there, and Mary Balogh, a Welsh woman herself, set at least one novel there, but it simply doesn't seem to suit the romantic imagination of most readers.

I do think this is reader driven, but we writers are all readers, too, with many of the same pre-conceptions and emotional responses.

On to England. In the Georgian age, the north was far from the administrative south and could be wilder and unruly. My Countess of Arradale, with vast estates in Yorkshire, rules with a medieval touch still, summoning her laborers and tenants like an army when required. Instead of the rapacious duke dragging a woman off to his highland lair, why not a chilly place in the wilder heartland of Yorkshire. It wouldn't spark the reader imagination in quite the same way, would it?

(The photo is of a farm near Hathersage, which is actually just over the border into Derbyshire, where the Peak District is wonderfully dramatic. I have the pic because my father-in-law's brother worked there, and my father-in-law frequently visited.)

So let's explore this subject, and there's a book prize for a random pick of responses.

First, what historical romances come to mind set in Ireland and Wales? Any favorites set there? You can include earlier books if you wish, but I'm mainly looking at 1700 on.

If you can't think of any, of if you've not liked any you've tried, what's wrong with Wales and Ireland as a setting?

If you think it's a great setting, are there types of romances you'd love to see set there?

What about Scotland? No shortage of Scottish romances, but is there a different type of story you'd love to see set there?

And England, would you like more stories set in the wilder parts? Do you have some great ones of that sort to share here?

The winner will get the choice of Dangerous Joy, a Rogues book set in Ireland, or Secrets of the Night, a Malloren novel set in wilder Yorkshire.

Have at it!

Jo

 

 

Comments

[Bonnie]

I think the main thing about Wales that makes it a tough place to put a story in, is the language and place names. Part of the writers job is to give us a sense of a place by the dialog and dialect of a region as well as the place names. Welsh makes this a bit difficult, so maybe writers just don't bother. I don't need a book. I have both excellent stories.

[margaret evans porter]

I wrote 2 Irish Regencies, though admittedly set mainly in the countryside. For Irish and Scots historicals, I enjoyed the late Nancy Richards-Akers's books a great deal. Irish historicals--Clare Delacroix wrote several. Laurel McKee/Amanda McCabe wrote the Daughters of Erin series fairly recently.

I've actually read quite a lot of Irish historicals. I enjoy and appreciate the alternate culture and setting, and like revisiting a place very familiar to me through family and my husband's work. I typically chose an Ireland-set story over a Scotland-set story. (Despite the fact that my mother's family is so Scots!) I'm hoping other commenters might suggest Irish historicals that I've not yet read.

I set 3 of my historical romances on the Isle of Man (soon to be re-issued as eBooks). Based on reader reaction, the opportunity to experience a different/unusual/unfamiliar region was a positive. (Though admittedly, at times the action of each book moves to London.) The island has much in common with both Ireland and Scotland, but a character all its own.

[Evangeline Holland]

I feel settings in romance are based on the images we receive via popular culture. Since I devoured gothic romances and "clogs-and-shawls" books early on in my romance/women's fiction reading, I am usually drawn towards books set in the North of England (or in Cornwall). I do have to say, Jo, that Emily and the Dark Angel created an uncanny love for Leicestershire (Melton Mowbray to be more specific, and the hunting society, to be even more specific!), so when an author does step outside of London, I am more than happy to get a peek at the countryside via fiction. As for Ireland and Wales--yes, please! I think I have Celtic blood somewhere, and Welsh, Irish, Bretons, Cornish...I find them all romantic, admirable, and fascinating.

I'm currently reading Carrie Lofty's Starlight, and really enjoy the Glasgow setting. We don't see too many industrial or city Scottish settings; we leap straight from London to the Highlands.

[nancy]

Dinah Dean has a book set in the Lake District called Cockermouth Mail.
I rather like road books. Hasn't there generally been a trend away from books set in London? Even many of the books set primarily in London aren't set in the social milieu of earlier books. Don't see many heroines worrying about Almack's.
I do not like most of what are called shawls an clogs books. I prefer stories about English nobles and aristocrats no matter where the scene is setthough have a preference for English countryside.
The trouble wth Wales is that it is rather sparsely inhabited and people seem to be far apart from each other and one spends so much time trying to decipher the language that the story passes one by. I thought it sparsely inhabited in 1983 and imagine it was even less inhabited in 1813.
Stories set in Cornwall always seem to have something to do with smugglers, and seem to be the place for Gothicks. York would be a great place for a story though ZZYorkshire seems best suited for Gothick types.
I haven't really read a story set in Regency era Scotland recently though Mary Jo and Diane Gaston have characters go to Scotland--
I would think it would be difficult to have romance set in Ireland without politics coming into it.

[Regan Walker]

For my "best lists" of historical novels set in Ireland and Scotland see these links to the posts on my blog, Regan's Romance Reviews:

Scotland:
http://reganromancereview.blogspot.com/2012/05/best-scottishhighlander-historical.html

Ireland:
http://reganromancereview.blogspot.com/2012/03/best-irish-historical-romances-for-st.html

Enjoy!

[Jo Beverley]

Jo here. Good point, Bonnie, about Welsh names, but I think Irish are trickier. They're never pronounced as they're written!

[Jo Beverley]

Margaret, thanks for the recommendations of Irish books. I obviously haven't looked hard enough.

I remember your Isle of Man books. I appreciated an unusual setting. I also remember going by ship for a day out there when I was very, very young. Heysham to Douglas, IIRC. For some reason it made a big impression.

[Jo Beverley]

Nancy, that's an interesting point about sparsely populated Wales, though many part of England away from the south west could be thinly populated in the past.

Or still. I'm constantly surprised by the large amount of land without obvious habitations we have here.

I'm not sure about Yorkshire and gothics. The moors, yes, but it can be quite comfortable in the fertile areas.

Jo

[Jo Beverley]

Thanks for the links, Regan.

Jo

[Nicola Cornick]

I loved Laurel McKee's Irish set books. I'm a huge supporter of books set in less-familiar places. I really enjoyed Dinah Dean's The Cockermouth Mail and have other older Regencies that are set outside London. I'll be looking for Margaret's historicals set on the Isle of Man. That sounds right up my street.

My short story in the Wench anthology Mischief and Mistletoe is set in Wales and I've just finished writing the first book in a trilogy of Scottish-set Regencies (including one book that features Regency Edinburgh). They'll be out next year. I've used Yorkshire a lot as it's the place of my birth and to me has as much "wild" potential as Cornwall or Scotland.

[Janice]

I too love The Cockermouth Mail; it's one of my favorite trads. I reread it when I can't stand another damn spying duke with a kung fu mistress, because the characters feel very real and the what the setting requires brings out their best qualities. We have a review at our website, Regency Retro Reads.

In general I like road books or books set in other areas of England. Georgian is swell but I am most comfortable with regency because I'm more familiar with the customs.

I am not much on any book which uses phonetically written Scottish dialog. It is a stumble for my brain when I'm reading it, although since I have grown a bit more familiar with it through watching David Tennant and other Scots actors use it, I can understand it pretty well now. I still feel that a little for flavor is okay, but not pages of the stuff, please. Ditto for Irish. French is okay as most of the casual expressions they might use have passed into English.

American-set regencies, for some reason, have never interested me much. Not enough governesses, perhaps :)

[Janga]

I can think of three by Mary Balogh set in Wales: Truly, Longing, and Simply Love. Maybe Wales seems a particularly appropriate setting for Beauty and the Beast tales since Simply Love can be so classified as can Julia London's The Perils of Pursuing a Prince and Eloisa James's When Beauty Tamed the Beast, also set in Wales.

Lauren Willig's The Deception of the Emerald Ring is set in Ireland, at least the historical part is.

When I think of books set in Cornwall, the first names that come to mind are not authors of historical romance but du Maurier, Pilcher, and Willett, but Mary Balogh's Unforgiven is set there. So is Teresa Medeiros's One Night of Scandal, Anna Campbell's Captive of Sin, and Susanna Kearsley's The Rose Garden. The latter is a time travel, of course, but part of it is set in the early 18th century. Does that qualify it as "historical"?

[Cynthia Owens]

Shameless publicity here, but I love books set anywhere in Ireland - so I wrote two! :) You can check them out here: http://thecladdaghseries.com/

[margaret evans porter]

I'm so happy to find other fans of The Cockermouth Mail. I truly enjoyed all Dinah Dean's stories! Perhaps time for a re-glom!

[Monica J.]

I've read Laurel McKee Daughters of Erin trilogy and another set in early 1700s (fairly poorly researched I wanted to throw it) and wish there were more written during that time period. Most seem to want to avoid anything from about the 1700s to 1850s. People love the famine for some reason. I want more during the Penal Code times. So much easily used conflict!

I have wondered if the Catholic/Protestant conflict puts people off, but it doesn't seem to stop Scottish writers (have seen several from Scotland but religion never figures in). Maybe it's the poor-rich disparity, but the same thing happened in England. London featured a gap just as wide.

Maybe they worry about language. Which they shouldn't as Irish (Gaelic) nearly disappeared in the late 1800s. Irish names were unheard of from easily the 1600s to, if I recall correctly they came into vogue in the 1960s. Getting the dialect right, is really hard. :) (I've been toying with a historical set in Dublin, one in 1803 and another in 1842)

[Jo Beverley]

"I have wondered if the Catholic/Protestant conflict puts people off, but it doesn't seem to stop Scottish writers (have seen several from Scotland but religion never figures in)"

That's an interesting point, Monica. Perhaps it reflects out modern knowledge. Religious division is still something we associate with Ireland, but not with anywhere else in Britain.

Many people now associate Scotland with kilts, so kilts we have even if they're anachronistic for the time.

I don't think most people have a concept to put on Wales, which is why it gets less attention.

Jo

[Sue]

Georgette Heyer set many novels outside London and I find them the more interesting(The Nonesuch in Yorkshire and The Toll Gate in the Peak District). I think of The Rogues who journeyed everywhere including Cornwall and Ireland. For me the setting isn't as important as the characters but if I know the area and the author doesn't, it really jars. I also find authors who didn't research well and make mistakes on journey times incredibly annoying. One book had a coach and four travel to Devon in a day with no change of horses - I didn't finish the book!!!

[Diane Sallans]

So many books set in Ireland and Wales make me kinda sad because the people are often shown as being oppressed by the English and I know it was many years before that changed at all. So tho I love Ireland and Wales I probably read less stories set there than England.

[Gail Mallin]

I'm a fan of The Cockermouth Mail too and I like stories set in Cumbria. I used Keswick as the location for my late eighteenth-century romance DEBT OF HONOUR and my wip is a Regency set near Cockermouth. I think Welsh names are quite difficult so that may put some readers off. I wrote a Regency, MARRY IN HASTE, which began in Bath and then switched to the South Wales coast, but I tried to use names which I felt readers might already know.
I haven't read any stories I really liked which were set in Ireland and I wouldn't want to try an Irish setting myself as I don't see how to avoid political aspects.

[Donna]

Funny you should ask... I just read a traditional Regency this weekend that was set in Cornwall - Allison Lane's The Earl's Revenge. I can think of plenty of stories where peers had estates in Scotland, but none actually set in Edinburgh. Jennifer Ashley set her MacKenzie brothers series in Scotland, but in the Victorian era.

I have to agree with those commenters who suggested that the religious strife possibly prevents Ireland being used as a location, but I would think those same problems would make a very dramatic and interesting story.

Excellent post, and I've added several of the suggestions to my To Be Read list.

[Nicola Cornick]

That's a very interesting point about Wales lacking a "concept" in comparison to Scotland, Jo.

[Margot]

Laura Kinsale has a book, Uncertain Magic, which is at least partly set in Ireland, but I don't remember actually liking it all that much. The paranormal elements were just not my thing. A lot of people do like it, though.

I have an inordinate fondness for Wales. A lot of my favorite books when I was growing up were set in Wales or Welsh inspired (Lloyd Alexander, Susan Cooper, Diana Wynne Jones), and I really wish there were more romances set there. Actually, possibly the very first romance novel I read (it might have been the second) I discovered because I was researching Welsh mythology and the book came up. (The other possibly-first romance novel I read was because I was searching for Scottish mythology.)

[Artemisia]

I think writing a romance set in Ireland would be like trying to write a romance in the antebellum South: the undercurrent of future strife is always there, in the reader's mind anyway. However, there was plenty of political hullabaloo in the Regency period. Heyer skims some of it, just enough that if you are an intelligent and questioning reader you go look it up. If you don't care, just go on with the story.

By the way, there were some small towns here that had fairly civilized society at this period: Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, and New York. No problems with incomprehensible place names either.