Idea Sorting

Pat Rice here, without a relevant blog in my head and dipping into the question box…

Cheri Oggy wins a free Patricia Rice book by asking how authors choose an idea and narrow them down to a particular genre.

Wish I knew the answer to that one!  I’d say experience plays a big part of it. And contracts! Keep in mind that publishing moves verrrrrry slowly.  After I turn in a book, it could be months before an editor has read it and asked for revisions and I’ve provided them and so forth.  During that time, I’ll be playing with ideas, knowing my historical editor will want more historicals. So that's how I choose at least one genre goal!

If I know I need to write an historical, then my mind will normally focus on elements that work well in that genre.  I’m not likely to put my favorite space aliens into Regency England.  Not likely, mind you.  That doesn’t mean I rule it out forever. I’m just familiar with the traditions of historical romance and experience tells me that some things work better than others.  But sometimes, my Muse refuses to let me choose, and I’m stuck with insane ideas that I have to make work within the parameters of the genre as I know it. Psychic heroines and fire-breathing superheroes aren’t precisely historical romance convention, but I needed to write the Magic and Mystic series, so I did.  (lest I forget I'm supposed to be doing book promotion instead of blathering, that's the hot cover of my July release--the third book of the MYSTIC trilogy!) And now I have a fantastic Regency historical idea, so I’m off and running in another direction. I never run out of history!

Outside of historical, I have all sorts of interests, and play with them regularly. I’m currently toying with two contemporary ideas, one of them I thought would be a traditional contemporary romance, except a dead body showed up in the first chapter. So I wrote the normal romance proposal, hoping I could get away with a sentimental story that just happens to have a mystery in the background.  And then I turned around and wrote the same proposal as a mystery, just to see what happened.  My agent loves the sentimental story, probably because romance sells better than mystery. So I guess we can say market demands also choose genre.

And now the idea of an urban fantasy is giving me nightmares, so I’m trying to learn the elements of that field. (For my recommended author list in UF, check my personal blog) I read a lot of it, and many of the books are extremely well written, in a defined manner that I’m not sure I can emulate —especially since I can’t write vampires and werewolves.  This is a genre that combines elements of mystery, fantasy, and horror, sometimes with a touch of romance, so I think I can really spread my wings and fly with it if I can get the basics right--and leave out the fangs and fur!

I just can’t say how I “chose” those ideas, and I’m not entirely certain I narrowed them down to a single genre.  But trying to figure out how I wean out the bad ideas (space aliens) and choose the more fitting one (marriage of convenience) combines a lot of factors, I think.  My experience, my preferences, my reading habits, my knowledge of the industry, my friends screaming at me not to jump off a cliff… 

Anyone else out there want to take a stab at this question? How do we rein in our wild imaginations and create something a majority of people will want to read?  And readers, do you really want books to fit certain expectations, or do you like being surprised by the unexpected, as long as you get the ending you want? (Space aliens in your jello, anyone?)

And before you leap in and say you want to know what to expect when you pick up a book--keep in mind that genres are continually changing. Subtly, perhaps, but changing. And they change because of innovation. Pick up any old historical--I'm re-reading Edith's THE DUKE'S WAGER right now, in which the villain has a larger part than the hero--you'll see how the genre has shifted over the years. Would you like to go back to the old ways?

Comments

[Linda Banche]

I like Regencies that are more or less factual. There can be a little fantasy or paranormal, but not too much. I think your Mystic Series has the right balance. I'd say it's over 90% historical with a little paranormal/fantasy mixed it. My tastes require more history.

Lately I've read a few paranormal/fantasy Regencies which are heavy on the P/F. I don't like them. For one thing, too much P/F makes the book sound contemporary to me. Such books also seem to have less history, maybe because the book can be only so long.

And urban fantasy doesn't do anything for me. I don't like vampires.

As for your romance with some mystery, I like it. I like something else, like mystery or adventure, in addition to the romance. Really, you can have the hero and heroine panting over each other only so much.

[NinaP]

Great post Prof. Pat!! Congrats on Mystic Warrior. Yummy cover. (I love “all guy” covers) May he fly off the shelves and send your sales through the roof. (and up the charts)

To the shifting and blending of genres, the market will probably always need to keep purists happy, but from what I’m seeing of the Techno “sock-it-to-me” generations, they are leaning toward a nice genre-mix to go with their high-powered Starbucks coffee drinks and hybrid cars.

Personally, as a lover of paranormal, I need my extraordinary firmly grounded in real history no matter the genre. It's ok with me if an author wants to send his futuristic vampire in an epic search for the Holy Grail, the hero just better be related to the real Vlad Dracul Tepes, and be looking for away to save his soul (or end his existence. Hmmm another book idea coming. But what genre…) Anyway, as a reader, I have little patience with writers who think they can rewrite my intelligence by inventing history or picking it, piece meal, from the air, to suit. (Sorry, Mr. Brown)

So, I’m back to writing and how do I rein in my wild imaginations and create something a majority of people will want to read? The verdict is still out on that one, (and I probably can’t). However, I can seriously relate to “friends screaming at me not to jump off a cliff.” Or, in my case, it was a dear friend screaming at me to jump off a different cliff – one of the romance variety. I’m just hoping she was right; my taste for the paranormal runs mighty deep.

Nina, with Linda on hero and heroine can only pant over each other just so much.

[Patricia Rice]

LOL, I do love the cynicism about romantic panting! I can appreciate well-written sexual tension, but drooling over each other's rear ends sounds like two dogs sniffing around each other. "G"

It's possible the Tekkie generation will move us more toward the Wild, Wild West craziness of steampunk, and that's not a bad thing. We've about done vampires to death, I think.

And I'm with you on grounding in history, or at least, reality. A contemporary can lose me when the heroine is conveniently not carrying a cell phone at a crucial moment when she carries it all the rest of the time.

I still have no clear reason why we choose the ideas we do. Nina,if you want paranormal without romance, then it's urban fantasy for you. It doesn't have to be vampires!

[J K Prince]

Sorry to be totally off the subject, but I would like to thank you for including your name at the top of your post. When it is not there, I get a couple of paragraphs into the post and start wondering who is writing this. Then I have to scroll to the bottom of the post to find out and then back to where I stopped reading - okay, it doesn't take much to annoy me. But, I do wish all the Wenches would do this.

[Patricia Rice]

LOL, JK! I'm the fluttery butterfly of the group, changing my little icon with each post, depending on my mood. the others tend to stick to one icon--MJ does a cat, Anne does her dog, Jo does a Cabbage Patch doll, etc. We started off putting our names up there but kind of wandered away from it. I'll suggest it again.

[anne gracie]

Great post, Pat. For me the ideas I go with are the ones that won't leave me alone, that keep nagging to be written. Any time I get an idea for a story I jot it down in a notebook so I won't forget it, but usually I do. But some ideas keep coming back --some over years -- and new possible scenes pop into my mind. That's when I know I have a viable story.
I do have ideas all the time for contemporaries and for Sci-Fi/fantasy, but I leave them in the notebook, because I'm not a fast enough writer to write in two sub-genres.

[Annrei]

I remember hearing somewhere that John Lennon and Paul McCartney wouldn't write down ideas, but tried to remember them. If they forgot the idea, then they figured it was a bad one anyway. Not sure how true that is, but that's what I go by. If I find that I can build on the idea or that the idea recurs over a few months or a few years, then I have to put it down somehow.
But as a reader--and part of the techies, I guess, being "only" 23--I like twists in my reading. You can only read the same plot so many times before it gets stale.

[Patricia Rice]

I understand about the idea that won't let go. I've got at least one of those that's still not marketable. But sometimes, I can take those nagging ideas and combine them with a tidbit in my "idea file" and make it into a concept my editor will accept. But you're right, there are a lot of ideas in there that came to me as a full blown scene and never ever went anywhere.

[Janice]

I like all styles of regencies, but if I had to choose just one, I think I'd prefer the older style, such as the Edith Layton Signet you mentioned. They seem to me to be richer, more complex and denser than the current style of regency historicals - I just feel that there's more 'there' there.

I like the older books because the era is as much a character as the people are.

Some say the main difference between older and newer style historicals is that there's more sex in the newer ones. I wouldn't say that there's too much sex in the current style, because if those scenes are done well, they add to one's understanding of the characters. I would say that for *some* authors, if you took out the sex scenes, you'd have an 80 page novelette left, if that.

I'm not some teenager reading to pull out 'how to' info - I want a story - and too often the sex seems mere padding.

[Linda Banche]

Janice, you're a woman after my own heart. I like those old Signets, too. Mary Balogh said some of hers would be coming out as 2-for-one's, and I'm looking forward to them. Signet did some for Barbara Metzger and Edith Layton. I wish they'd go back and do the others, like Pat's and Jo's. And I wish they'd reissue Edith's. I missed hers.

And I agree, with some of the historicals out there, remove the sex, and you have no story. Erotica writers tell me the sex "is" the story. Well, if you want that, fine. I think some of the books labeled romances are really erotica. I also think those of us who want more story and less sex are being left out in the cold nowadays. The "more sex" camp is very vocal and tends to shout down those of us who want less sex.

[Patricia Rice]

While I absolutely adore the wonderful in-depth characterization of the villain, showing his POV and home life and history, in the Duke's Wager, it came at the expense of the hero because of word count. The book is wonderful, filled with nuance and a feeling of "being there" that we seldom have these days. But I'm thinking this book, which was considered small category at the time, has about the same word count as single title historicals these days. We might accomplish it if we left out the sex, but then the books aren't likely to sell because the biggest part of the market expects historicals to be sexy. They also expect the hero to stand out far more than the villain, and I'm thinking a lot of the description would cause yawns these days. It's a conundrum.

[Janice]

I understand your points, Pat, and they're valid marketing concerns. Good thing Edith either didn't know or didn't care about 'expectations' when she wrote her early books - because they're engrossing reads just as they are.

All the attention paid to the 'villain' of The Duke's Wager pays off, as he turns out to be the hero of The Disdainful Marquis :) Although they are standalones, they really should be read together, I think.

Layton's early books haven't been reprinted since some were twofered by Signet, but they can be found easily & inexpensively via ebay, amazon or paperbackswap.com.

I am, as you may have noticed :) - a great Layton fan, and I truly mourn her passing.

[Sherrie Holmes]

It *is* a conundrum, isn't it? Yet I believe descriptions, even lavish ones, can work if the author is skilled. I like descriptions, as long as they don't go on for pages and pages.

One thing I see often in my editorial work and in contests that I judge is laundry-list descriptions every time a new character is introduced. Some writers go way overboard by listing every attribute, scar, wart, sneer, and tick in one fell swoop. Worse yet are descriptions that go into a character's background, childhood, triumphs and disappointments--again, in one large chunk. These are best doled out here and there throughout the story in a more natural way, and only if they are relevant.

When writers do the laundry-list descriptions that go on for pages, I envision a little person bustling onto the scene, thrusting aside the characters, clicking a remote control that freezes the action in mid-stride, and then unfurling a scroll to read off the description. When done, he rolls up the scroll, clicks the remote, and the story resumes. *g*

[Patricia Rice]

Oh,Sherrie, that's hysterical! I think the little person with a scroll must be a troll, really. Full of self importance, strutting out on stage to do his part.

But pacing is a tough act to get right, so I understand the newbie's difficulty!

[Virginia DeMarce]

Sherrie Holmes wrote:
"When writers do the laundry-list descriptions that go on for pages, I envision a little person bustling onto the scene, thrusting aside the characters, clicking a remote control that freezes the action in mid-stride, and then unfurling a scroll to read off the description. When done, he rolls up the scroll, clicks the remote, and the story resumes. *g*"

Sherrie, I really recommend that you read Tanya Huff's new book, The Enchantment Emporium. It's f/sf rather than romance, but it's a spectacularly good example of providing necessary information without infodumps -- not to mention that she manages to make clear that there has been an orgy without mentioning a single body part ::grin::

Admittedly, the reader does need to have some understanding of Celtic mythology to make sense of it.

[Patricia Barraclough]

I go back to some of the oldies and goodies when I have time. I like stories I read to have little unexpected twists ( within reason - no space aliens showing up at regency balls.). My husband and I just finished Ken Follett's PILLARS OF THE EARTH and are working on WORLD WITHOUT END. one of the things I really like are the unexpected plot twists. You think you know where the story is headed and something unexpected happens. Admittedly these two books have way more time and space to do this than most of you are allowed in your books, but a little detour on the way to Happily Ever After is not a bad thing.
Keep up the good work ladies.