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JOHN REKUS

anne enjoyed your piece on manners, It reminded me that I am indebted to my mom, who when I was a small child taught me table manners that remained with me through my entire life, at 62 I still employ the skills I learned as a two yearold.

Isobel Carr

My pet peeve is that so many people weren’t taught to chew with their mouths shut! It’s disgusting to listen to someone chew and slurp and smack. Many promising first dates have been ruined by a man’s inability to eat like a civilized adult. The idea of a lifetime of being confronted by that at every meal makes me feel ill.

Anne Gracie

John, my father was the same — my paternal grandmother was a bit of a tartar and very strict about manners. Even in the last months of his life, when he'd lost so many other faculties, my dad was a gentleman to the fingertips, and it endeared him to his nurses, so that he got extra attention.

Mary Jo Putney

To this day, most modern Americans have a terror of eating implements and fear that they'll use the wrong one in a formal setting. The most elaborate place setting I've ever seen was in Milford Sound, New Zealand. The lodge was government owned and used for training, so our dinner was accompanied by a massive number of implements. Luckily, there didn't seem to be anyone around in a mood to judge us. *G*

When I lived in England, it was a relief to know that as an American, I was totally off the map so there was no point in trying to fit in. But you're right about those poor heroines who marry too far up the social ladder. It can't have been comfortable for them.

Anne Gracie

Isobel, yes indeed — I don't think people realize that it makes their dinner companions uncomfortable and sometimes a little squeamish. And one would assume that on a first date, at least, they'd know better, so clearly they were never taught.

Anne Gracie

That's funny about your NZ experience, Mary Jo. Australia and NZ were colonized in the Georgian and Victorian eras, and as with so many distant outposts of empire, the upper echelons of society clung firmly to the habits from "back home" even when they'd moved on. And those habits then became the standard.

It's one of the theories for the American habit of first cutting up the meat, then transferring the fork to the right hand to eat — that's more or less how most people did it in Europe when North America was colonized, except the fork wasn't in widespread use yet, so people used a spoon to steady their meat. They'd cut it up, then use the spoon to eat. Then when the use of the fork at table became widespread in Europe, holding the knife in the right hand and the fork in the left became the correct manner of eating. Forks came to America, but the old customs remained, so the fork was transferred to the right hand, just as the spoon had been. Interesting, isn't it?

Connie Fischer

What a great post today! I am an American and when my husband and I moved to Paris for a number of years, we picked up the European way of eating with our fork in our left hand and our knife in the right. I still eat that way today. It's very tidy and, in my opinion, the correct way to eat. Of course, back here in the U.S., we get a lot of frowns from people who don't understand that "system." The American way of cutting a piece of meat, setting down the knife, moving the fork to the right hand to pickup the piece and then put it in the mouth is time consuming and a disaster looking for a place to happen. By that, I mean it would be so easy to drop the knife or fork. I prefer the European way!

Louise Reynolds

Anne, great post. I've always wondered about the whys of the American handling of the fork. Now I know. Any insight on the two different ways of holding a knife? I guess that could be a whole new post. I wonder if it is class based or a geographical thing?

Judy

Unfortunately, I was raised without manners. Really. My mother, for some reason, believed I would simply learn it along the way. I loved cooking, so I did pick up a few things in my cooking classes. The rest came later, as an adult. It isn't difficult for me to see the servant or gypsy learning. When I lived in England, I watched and learned. I like the unobtrusiveness of keeping the fork in the left hand and the knife in the right, but I also like how changing hands forces me to slow down. I use both methods depending on what my goal is at the time.

Anne Gracie

Connie, I felt much the same when I first went to the US and saw people switching their forks back and forth as they ate. I think both systems have their merits and we should just follow the system we feel most comfortable with. The way of eating my parents taught me from when I was small is so automatic to me I don't even think about it, except when I'm somewhere it's different.

I would really like to know more about the etiquette of places where they don't use cutlery; Chinese and Japanese (and other) chopstick etiquette, for instance, and places where eating with fingers is polite.

Anne Gracie

Louise, I'm not sure what you mean by the different ways of holding the knife. I was taught to hold it like this -- index fingers keeping each implement steady and the fork held with the curved tines pointing downward. Even to eat peas, which isn't easy.
http://bit.ly/13jGWxt
I've seen some people hold a knife like a pen, but my mother, who was strict about such things, frowned on that. I've also seen some people holding the fork in their left fist, stabbing down vertically on the meat or whatever, as they cut it, then transferring the fork, scoop side up, to the right hand, to eat.

But truthfully, I don't think it matters how you hold your knife and fork, as long as you eat neatly and quietly and don't make your dining companions queasy. *g*

Anne Gracie

Judy, I think that's a very wise approach. As I said, my parents were pretty strict about table manners, but one of my sisters raised her kids the same way as we were taught, and the other raised hers to eat however they liked. It's a choice.

And I think it's polite to adjust your style of eating to your company. The aim of manners, after all — unless you're wanting to keep the hoi polloi out *g* — is to make your companions feel comfortable.

Patricia Rice

I'm glad you explained about holding down the meat with the spoon because I was trying to picture holding the meat with fingers and whacking with a knife...ouch. But even a spoon would be horribly awkward.

My husband admired the efficiency of European utensil habits and has adopted it for his own. I'm sure unenlightened Americans in restaurants watching him think he's being crude.

Anne Gracie

Pat I found the whole history of the fork, fascinating. It almost hijacked the blog post. Am chuckling at the possibility of people thinking your husband's European style of eating might be crude — I think that's the thing — we each have our own ways of doing things and secretly think anyone different is "wrong" but it's just . . . different.

alison reynolds

Fascinating post, Anne.
I think I was brought up at the same manners school as you when it comes to holding a knife and fork. Wish I had watched more closely in US to see how people used eating implements over there. Great explanation of why from you.
I also apparently, friends pointed it out recently, put my knife and fork down while eating. I didn't really realise and then remembered in the dark recesses that that was what my grandmother, maiden aunts insisted on.
Since I've injured my finger I fear I am a bit of a slob and they would shudder and all the food I spill back on the plate.

Alison
Alison

Anne Gracie

Definitely the same school of table manners, Alison — I also put my knife and fork down between mouthfuls. My mother used to say, "Thirty two chews" in an attempt to slow us all down. ;)

Thanks for dropping by.

LenoreJ

I had a housemother at boarding school who would wack my elbows with a wooden spoon if I didn't keep them pinned to my sides while eating. Cutting meat I remember as a particularly fraught time for elbows....

Anne Gracie

Ouch! Lenore — that wasn't exactly polite behaviour on her part, was it? One of my grandmothers used to take a swipe at childrens' elbows if they were on the table. Means now, every time I lean my elbows on the table I get a pleasurable sense of naughtiness. ;)

Lily Callahan

Ways of eating were supposedly keys to passing as a spy in Germany. Hold your fork and knife in an English way rather than a German way and you would be found out!

Ella Quinn

I'm so late getting here. I do think manners are important. I was taught proper US table manners growing up. I used to cringe when I saw a parent teaching a child the improper way to eat. While living in Germany, I learned proper German manners (fork in the left hand and placed in the mouth with the tines up. Knife in the right hand). At first I did it only to blend in, but as we lingered on in Europe, I got into the habit and have trouble remembering to eat the US way in the US. My son left home with a complete set of German and US manners. When we lived in England, someone was giving a course to wives of diplomates and other women on English manners so that they could fit in.

Ella Quinn

Lilly, that's exactly right. There is a famous story of an American spy that was perfect in every way, except when he sat down to eat he was caught.

Margot

I actually grew up using mostly chopsticks, so I have to admit to occasionally still feeling somewhat lost when required to use a fork and knife in formal situations.

As for the etiquette of chopsticks:
1. Never stick them straight into a bowl of rice- always lay them over the top or else put them to the side. Not only is sticking them straight in extremely unstable, it also resembles a Buddhist shrine, with incense in sand, which brings to mind dead people.

2. Never pass food directly from your chopsticks to another person's. Put any food you're giving them into their bowl. (And yes, it is quite usual for other people, especially elders, to serve you food directly, whether you want it or not.)

I know there's more, but I can't think of it off the top of my head.

As for the etiquette of eating with your hands, I don't know all that much, but I do know that you're supposed to only use your right hand. Traditionally, the left hand is the one you use to, er, wipe yourself with after going to the bathroom, so it's considered unclean and not suitable for eating with.

Anne Gracie

Lily and Ella, I can see that spy-exposed-by-foreign-manners happening — it makes perfect sense to me, because its one of those things that you don't even notice if you've been doing it since early childhood—but I have a feeling that it's a myth.

I first read about it on wikipedia, where it was reported as being used *as a fictional device*. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_utensil_etiquette#As_fictional_device
Since then I have seen it mentioned on a few websites that several spies in WW2 were exposed by their foreign table manners, and quoting wikipedia as their source. So I suspect it's an urban myth.

Anne Gracie

Margot, thanks for that little primer on chopstick etiquette.

I made a boo-boo once early in my teaching career — I used to teach Snglish to young refugees from SE Asia and they always wanted to go to yum cha to celebrate the end of term. This particular time, I was at a yum cha with my students and one young gentleman kept putting food in my bowl. So I thought I'd return the favor, and put something in his — I immediately knew I'd done something wrong -- just a flicker in his expression as he tried not to show it. But I could tell. And of course, being so polite, none of the students would tell me.

Later, I realized that he'd been swiftly popping morsels in my bowl using the other --untouched -- end of his chopsticks, whereas I'd used the eating end.

Chinese and Japanese and other countries have such sophisticated cultures that I'm certain there are all kinds of etiquette pitfalls for foreigners and members of different classes, just as there are in western society. Possibly more. *g*

Artemisia

(1) Table manners lessons: Pretty Woman. Note in the breakfast scene she picks up a pancake and eats it with her fingers. When she has to go to a restaurant with him, she gets the hotel mgr to teach her how to use a formal table setting. (2) My dentist, cussing as his fiber optic cable broke mid-procedure: "In technology, nothing has succeeded since the fork!" (3) When at home, if I can eat it with a spoon, I do.

Joane

Great post.
I'm European so I have never realised that you could it differently.
Cutting all the meat and then changing the fork or cut-change-eat sounds very complicated!
Now I realise why you punt your left hand out of the table, something we find very strange and a little bit suspicious.
And great posts of readers. I loved the chopstick etiquette.

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